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brookiecookie87
Should cops be able to shoot random (Innocent) people? [Not Confirming who they shoot at]
February 7, 2013 at 11:22 PM

http://www.latimes.com/news/local/la-me-torrance-shooting-20130209,0,4414028.story

Dorner had a Grey Toyota Tundra. One of the vehicles they shot up was a Blue Toyota Tacoma.

And they didn't accidentally shot one bullet into this innocent civilians truck. I counted 46 (I might be off by one or two).



The second victim of Police shooting also the wrong color and model. And inside a skinny white guy.




And this isn't even the end. The Supsect is a tall (Near 6 feet), black, and 270 lbs.

They have shot at a truck with two Asian mexican ladies. And a truck with a white guy in it.

So unless two asian mexican ladies look like a black guy or a blue truck looks like a gray truck (Differen't model as well) something is clearly wrong here.

Someone made a joke that if you are a tall black man you need to stay inside for a few days. But since we have two asian mexican ladies and a white guy being shot at. It is pretty clear that if cops are around you are in danger (If you are in southern california at the moment).

Quote:

Two people were struck by gunfire and transported to an area hospital with unknown injuries, Chase said. No officers were injured.

The second incident, which involved Torrance police, occurred at Flagler Lane and Beryl Street about 5:45 a.m. No injuries were reported in that incident.

I agree this guy needs to be stopped. But is shooting 40+ bullets at every shadow that might be him really the best way to "catch" him?

An easy, "Please Come out with your hands up" Would have worked. Those people would have walked out of their vehicles and not been shot. Calling backup and following the vehicles would have worked as well.

Running the license plate numbers would show who they are as well.

This upsets me to no ends.


Normally there is a, "But if you look at it from this point it makes sense" Direction from the action Police perform.

But how do you shoot at the wrong truck 40+ times (That is the wrong color and model number) and they look nothing like the suspect. Or shoot at two asian mexican ladies, or a white guy when you are looking for a 6 foot, 270 lb, black guy?


Replies

  • brookiecookie87
    February 11, 2013 at 5:06 PM

    More lies I see. I -NEVER- cheered anyone being killed. I -NEVER- defended his actions. The same way no one said there are flying cars. The same way no one said there are cars that drive themselves. The same way I never mentioned Optimus Prime. The same way I never mentioned the Jetsons. The same way I never mentioned nuking the Police. The same way I never mentioned torching schools.

    These are just some of the lies you have told in this Topic.

    Apparently when you realize you are wrong all you can do is make up lie after lie.

    Unless you think the Police are lying, the reporters are lying, and the victims are lying. All the information is there.

    You just refuse to see it. I am ready for your next batch of lies.

    Quoting AMBG825:

     I thought it was pretty clear back on page 2 when I said that there wasn't enough information to make a determination of what should be done.

     

    Without having some very basic, elementary school questions answered, There is not enough information for me to answer your question.

     

    and if you're going to sit there and cheer someone for doing the right thing and defend his actions when the "right thing" he's doing is killing cops, we all know you hate cops. And he's doing what we all know you'd like to be doing yourself. And being that you were in another thread saying the entire state of California conspired to get him fired from his job because LAPD owns everything and everyone in CA, then you must idolize him pretty well.

    Quoting brookiecookie87:

    What are you rambling about?

    You do realize... We are not the people who are going to do the investigation, right? The officers involved have been put on leave. There will be an investigation.

    We are not the people performing the investigation.

    It was a mistaken identity is not a time line but it is an explanation. Why were these people shot? Tragic case of mistaken identity.

    It doesn't say, "The police felt threatened by them". It doesn't say, "They did something that provoked the cops to fire". It doesn't say, "They were not listening". It says, "A tragic case of mistaken identity".

    Which again. Goes along with every other story being put out.

    I am not trying to get you to say anything. I am just pointing out that everyone is saying it is a tragic case of mistaken identity (Including the Police) and no one is even hinting at anything else going on.

    Quoting AMBG825:

    I thought was pretty clear when I used the word "I"

    Do you know what I means. Do we need to spend 5 pages defining the word I? If it is said I cannot make an assessment based on this information. Do we really need to go back and define the word I for you?


    Quoting brookiecookie87:

    You do realize... We are not the people who are going to do the investigation, right? The officers involved have been put on leave. There will be an investigation.

    We are not the people performing the investigation.

    It was a mistaken identity is not a time line but it is an explanation. Why were these people shot? Tragic case of mistaken identity.

    It doesn't say, "The police felt threatened by them". It doesn't say, "They did something that provoked the cops to fire". It doesn't say, "They were not listening". It says, "A tragic case of mistaken identity".

    Which again. Goes along with every other story being put out.

    I am not trying to get you to say anything. I am just pointing out that everyone is saying it is a tragic case of mistaken identity (Including the Police) and no one is even hinting at anything else going on.

    Quoting AMBG825:

     "it was mistaken identity" is not a timeline of events. It's not an investigation of what happened to cause the officers to start shooting. It does not answer the very big question.


     


    WTF do you want me to say? Just tell me what it is you want to hear.


    Quoting brookiecookie87:


    The Police have released a statement saying what happened. Which is backed up by the statements released by the other two truck drivers.

    No one (Again except for you) has said all cops are bad. No one (besides you) has said, "screw them get rid of them".

    Do you ever get tired of making up lies about what people have said? Like the last two post where you suggest people want to nuke the police, torch schools, all cops are bad, or screw them no one has said that the cars drive themselves.

    No one.


    I -never- denied I used the word random. It's in the title and it's in my post. You are liar. A liar who doesn't understand the english language. Because if you did you would understand that when I am talking about random that I am talking about innocent people who are shot because the police officers shooting didn't confirm who they were shooting at.

    Or are you suggesting that the Police knew the drivers were not Christopher Dorner and shot at them anyways? And if that happened. Why did they call it a case of mistaken identity?



    Quoting AMBG825:


     Then why are you so against trying to figure out what actually happened?


     


    Tell us what you want to hear Frito? Do you want us to say all cops are bad screw em get rid of them or do you want to figure out why this happened so we can prevent it from happening?


     


    either way the crap about the car driving itself is completely irrelevant. Who cares that we know there was a person driving the car. It's irrelevant. Has nothing to do with anything. We know it wasn't random so you spending 10 pages defining the word random and denying you ever used the word is irrelevant. WTF do you want to hear?


    Quoting brookiecookie87:


    Straw man tactic, now, uh? With name calling. Awesome debate tactics.

    No one said, "No investigation should happen".
    No one said, "Let's nuke them"
    No one said, "Let's torch the schools their kids go to"
    No one said, "They shouldn't have kids"
    No one said, "If you are married to a cop screw you!"

    No one said anything remotely close to anything in your little tangent.

    What people did say is that before a Police Officer pulls the trigger they should know who they are shooting at. People did say that if you cannot wait to see who you are shooting at before you shoot the Police Force might not be for them.

    That doesn't mean all Police are bad. That doesn't even mean the Police who did the shooting are bad.  Everyone can agree they are under a lot of pressure and tension at the moment. But if they cannot work under pressure and tension they should not be working under pressure and tension.

    That doesn't mean we should nuke them, harm their kids, or any of the other lies you conjured up.





     






     






     



  • AMBG825
    by AMBG825
    February 11, 2013 at 5:20 PM
    Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. We know. You don't know what "I" means either.


    Just tell me what you want me to say since you don't like my actual opinion. Just tell me.


    Quoting brookiecookie87:

    More lies I see. I -NEVER- cheered anyone being killed. I -NEVER- defended his actions. The same way no one said there are flying cars. The same way no one said there are cars that drive themselves. The same way I never mentioned Optimus Prime. The same way I never mentioned the Jetsons. The same way I never mentioned nuking the Police. The same way I never mentioned torching schools.

    These are just some of the lies you have told in this Topic.

    Apparently when you realize you are wrong all you can do is make up lie after lie.

    Unless you think the Police are lying, the reporters are lying, and the victims are lying. All the information is there.

    You just refuse to see it. I am ready for your next batch of lies.


    Quoting AMBG825:

     I thought it was pretty clear back on page 2 when I said that there wasn't enough information to make a determination of what should be done.


     


    Without having some very basic, elementary school questions answered, There is not enough information for me to answer your question.


     


    and if you're going to sit there and cheer someone for doing the right thing and defend his actions when the "right thing" he's doing is killing cops, we all know you hate cops. And he's doing what we all know you'd like to be doing yourself. And being that you were in another thread saying the entire state of California conspired to get him fired from his job because LAPD owns everything and everyone in CA, then you must idolize him pretty well.


    Quoting brookiecookie87:


    What are you rambling about?

    You do realize... We are not the people who are going to do the investigation, right? The officers involved have been put on leave. There will be an investigation.

    We are not the people performing the investigation.

    It was a mistaken identity is not a time line but it is an explanation. Why were these people shot? Tragic case of mistaken identity.

    It doesn't say, "The police felt threatened by them". It doesn't say, "They did something that provoked the cops to fire". It doesn't say, "They were not listening". It says, "A tragic case of mistaken identity".

    Which again. Goes along with every other story being put out.

    I am not trying to get you to say anything. I am just pointing out that everyone is saying it is a tragic case of mistaken identity (Including the Police) and no one is even hinting at anything else going on.


    Quoting AMBG825:

    I thought was pretty clear when I used the word "I"

    Do you know what I means. Do we need to spend 5 pages defining the word I? If it is said I cannot make an assessment based on this information. Do we really need to go back and define the word I for you?



    Quoting brookiecookie87:


    You do realize... We are not the people who are going to do the investigation, right? The officers involved have been put on leave. There will be an investigation.

    We are not the people performing the investigation.

    It was a mistaken identity is not a time line but it is an explanation. Why were these people shot? Tragic case of mistaken identity.

    It doesn't say, "The police felt threatened by them". It doesn't say, "They did something that provoked the cops to fire". It doesn't say, "They were not listening". It says, "A tragic case of mistaken identity".

    Which again. Goes along with every other story being put out.

    I am not trying to get you to say anything. I am just pointing out that everyone is saying it is a tragic case of mistaken identity (Including the Police) and no one is even hinting at anything else going on.


    Quoting AMBG825:


     "it was mistaken identity" is not a timeline of events. It's not an investigation of what happened to cause the officers to start shooting. It does not answer the very big question.



     



    WTF do you want me to say? Just tell me what it is you want to hear.



    Quoting brookiecookie87:



    The Police have released a statement saying what happened. Which is backed up by the statements released by the other two truck drivers.

    No one (Again except for you) has said all cops are bad. No one (besides you) has said, "screw them get rid of them".

    Do you ever get tired of making up lies about what people have said? Like the last two post where you suggest people want to nuke the police, torch schools, all cops are bad, or screw them no one has said that the cars drive themselves.

    No one.



    I -never- denied I used the word random. It's in the title and it's in my post. You are liar. A liar who doesn't understand the english language. Because if you did you would understand that when I am talking about random that I am talking about innocent people who are shot because the police officers shooting didn't confirm who they were shooting at.

    Or are you suggesting that the Police knew the drivers were not Christopher Dorner and shot at them anyways? And if that happened. Why did they call it a case of mistaken identity?




    Quoting AMBG825:



     Then why are you so against trying to figure out what actually happened?



     



    Tell us what you want to hear Frito? Do you want us to say all cops are bad screw em get rid of them or do you want to figure out why this happened so we can prevent it from happening?



     



    either way the crap about the car driving itself is completely irrelevant. Who cares that we know there was a person driving the car. It's irrelevant. Has nothing to do with anything. We know it wasn't random so you spending 10 pages defining the word random and denying you ever used the word is irrelevant. WTF do you want to hear?



    Quoting brookiecookie87:



    Straw man tactic, now, uh? With name calling. Awesome debate tactics.

    No one said, "No investigation should happen".
    No one said, "Let's nuke them"
    No one said, "Let's torch the schools their kids go to"
    No one said, "They shouldn't have kids"
    No one said, "If you are married to a cop screw you!"

    No one said anything remotely close to anything in your little tangent.

    What people did say is that before a Police Officer pulls the trigger they should know who they are shooting at. People did say that if you cannot wait to see who you are shooting at before you shoot the Police Force might not be for them.

    That doesn't mean all Police are bad. That doesn't even mean the Police who did the shooting are bad.  Everyone can agree they are under a lot of pressure and tension at the moment. But if they cannot work under pressure and tension they should not be working under pressure and tension.

    That doesn't mean we should nuke them, harm their kids, or any of the other lies you conjured up.








     









     











     




  • brookiecookie87
    February 11, 2013 at 5:24 PM

    What are you rambling about with "I"? The post before you mentioned that doesn't even have the word "I" in it.

    Is this another one of your random lies?


    Quoting AMBG825:

    Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. We know. You don't know what "I" means either.


    Just tell me what you want me to say since you don't like my actual opinion. Just tell me.


    Quoting brookiecookie87:

    More lies I see. I -NEVER- cheered anyone being killed. I -NEVER- defended his actions. The same way no one said there are flying cars. The same way no one said there are cars that drive themselves. The same way I never mentioned Optimus Prime. The same way I never mentioned the Jetsons. The same way I never mentioned nuking the Police. The same way I never mentioned torching schools.

    These are just some of the lies you have told in this Topic.

    Apparently when you realize you are wrong all you can do is make up lie after lie.

    Unless you think the Police are lying, the reporters are lying, and the victims are lying. All the information is there.

    You just refuse to see it. I am ready for your next batch of lies.


    Quoting AMBG825:

     I thought it was pretty clear back on page 2 when I said that there wasn't enough information to make a determination of what should be done.


     


    Without having some very basic, elementary school questions answered, There is not enough information for me to answer your question.


     


    and if you're going to sit there and cheer someone for doing the right thing and defend his actions when the "right thing" he's doing is killing cops, we all know you hate cops. And he's doing what we all know you'd like to be doing yourself. And being that you were in another thread saying the entire state of California conspired to get him fired from his job because LAPD owns everything and everyone in CA, then you must idolize him pretty well.


    Quoting brookiecookie87:


    What are you rambling about?

    You do realize... We are not the people who are going to do the investigation, right? The officers involved have been put on leave. There will be an investigation.

    We are not the people performing the investigation.

    It was a mistaken identity is not a time line but it is an explanation. Why were these people shot? Tragic case of mistaken identity.

    It doesn't say, "The police felt threatened by them". It doesn't say, "They did something that provoked the cops to fire". It doesn't say, "They were not listening". It says, "A tragic case of mistaken identity".

    Which again. Goes along with every other story being put out.

    I am not trying to get you to say anything. I am just pointing out that everyone is saying it is a tragic case of mistaken identity (Including the Police) and no one is even hinting at anything else going on.


    Quoting AMBG825:

    I thought was pretty clear when I used the word "I"

    Do you know what I means. Do we need to spend 5 pages defining the word I? If it is said I cannot make an assessment based on this information. Do we really need to go back and define the word I for you?



    Quoting brookiecookie87:


    You do realize... We are not the people who are going to do the investigation, right? The officers involved have been put on leave. There will be an investigation.

    We are not the people performing the investigation.

    It was a mistaken identity is not a time line but it is an explanation. Why were these people shot? Tragic case of mistaken identity.

    It doesn't say, "The police felt threatened by them". It doesn't say, "They did something that provoked the cops to fire". It doesn't say, "They were not listening". It says, "A tragic case of mistaken identity".

    Which again. Goes along with every other story being put out.

    I am not trying to get you to say anything. I am just pointing out that everyone is saying it is a tragic case of mistaken identity (Including the Police) and no one is even hinting at anything else going on.


    Quoting AMBG825:


     "it was mistaken identity" is not a timeline of events. It's not an investigation of what happened to cause the officers to start shooting. It does not answer the very big question.



     



    WTF do you want me to say? Just tell me what it is you want to hear.



    Quoting brookiecookie87:



    The Police have released a statement saying what happened. Which is backed up by the statements released by the other two truck drivers.

    No one (Again except for you) has said all cops are bad. No one (besides you) has said, "screw them get rid of them".

    Do you ever get tired of making up lies about what people have said? Like the last two post where you suggest people want to nuke the police, torch schools, all cops are bad, or screw them no one has said that the cars drive themselves.

    No one.



    I -never- denied I used the word random. It's in the title and it's in my post. You are liar. A liar who doesn't understand the english language. Because if you did you would understand that when I am talking about random that I am talking about innocent people who are shot because the police officers shooting didn't confirm who they were shooting at.

    Or are you suggesting that the Police knew the drivers were not Christopher Dorner and shot at them anyways? And if that happened. Why did they call it a case of mistaken identity?




    Quoting AMBG825:



     Then why are you so against trying to figure out what actually happened?



     



    Tell us what you want to hear Frito? Do you want us to say all cops are bad screw em get rid of them or do you want to figure out why this happened so we can prevent it from happening?



     



    either way the crap about the car driving itself is completely irrelevant. Who cares that we know there was a person driving the car. It's irrelevant. Has nothing to do with anything. We know it wasn't random so you spending 10 pages defining the word random and denying you ever used the word is irrelevant. WTF do you want to hear?



    Quoting brookiecookie87:



    Straw man tactic, now, uh? With name calling. Awesome debate tactics.

    No one said, "No investigation should happen".
    No one said, "Let's nuke them"
    No one said, "Let's torch the schools their kids go to"
    No one said, "They shouldn't have kids"
    No one said, "If you are married to a cop screw you!"

    No one said anything remotely close to anything in your little tangent.

    What people did say is that before a Police Officer pulls the trigger they should know who they are shooting at. People did say that if you cannot wait to see who you are shooting at before you shoot the Police Force might not be for them.

    That doesn't mean all Police are bad. That doesn't even mean the Police who did the shooting are bad.  Everyone can agree they are under a lot of pressure and tension at the moment. But if they cannot work under pressure and tension they should not be working under pressure and tension.

    That doesn't mean we should nuke them, harm their kids, or any of the other lies you conjured up.








     









     











     






  • LindaClement
    February 11, 2013 at 7:56 PM

    That's not what I meant --I was responding to the part in the article that seemed to imply exactly what you've suggested.

    There are a lot of reasons the plates may not be currently possessed by whomever they're supposed to be attached to.

    I thought it was police states where things like this happened...

    I think this is a pretty good argument for the way the British arm police.

    Quoting brookiecookie87:


    So if someone is changing plates it means it is okay to fire 50+ bullets into the back of a truck without confirming who you are shooting at first?

    No one said it is a Police state. Just that the Police should not be able to open fire without confirming who they are shooting at first.

    They also shouldn't have the right to execute someone without even attempting to arrest them.

    I get that they are tense and emotional. But if they feel the desire to shoot at every shadow that might be him they should probably stay home for the day.

    Quoting LindaClement:

    Running the plates only works if the vehicles (or plates) aren't stolen, or lent to someone else.

    So... not a police state?




  • GrannyM.
    February 12, 2013 at 10:16 AM

     

    Well of course not.....but...cases must be taken one at a time while using common sense...that means we are in trouble as there is such a shortage of "common sense" these days...

    Quoting brookiecookie87:

    http://www.latimes.com/news/local/la-me-torrance-shooting-20130209,0,4414028.story

    Dorner had a Grey Toyota Tundra. One of the vehicles they shot up was a Blue Toyota Tacoma.

    And they didn't accidentally shot one bullet into this innocent civilians truck. I counted 46 (I might be off by one or two).



    The second victim of Police shooting also the wrong color and model. And inside a skinny white guy.




    And this isn't even the end. The Supsect is a tall (Near 6 feet), black, and 270 lbs.

    They have shot at a truck with two Asian ladies. And a truck with a white guy in it.

    So unless two asian ladies look like a black guy or a blue truck looks like a gray truck (Differen't model as well) something is clearly wrong here.

    Someone made a joke that if you are a tall black man you need to stay inside for a few days. But since we have two asian ladies and a white guy being shot at. It is pretty clear that if cops are around you are in danger (If you are in southern california at the moment).

    Quote:

    Two people were struck by gunfire and transported to an area hospital with unknown injuries, Chase said. No officers were injured.

    The second incident, which involved Torrance police, occurred at Flagler Lane and Beryl Street about 5:45 a.m. No injuries were reported in that incident.

    I agree this guy needs to be stopped. But is shooting 40+ bullets at every shadow that might be him really the best way to "catch" him?

    An easy, "Please Come out with your hands up" Would have worked. Those people would have walked out of their vehicles and not been shot. Calling backup and following the vehicles would have worked as well.

    Running the license plate numbers would show who they are as well.

    This upsets me to no ends.

     

    Normally there is a, "But if you look at it from this point it makes sense" Direction from the action Police perform.

    But how do you shoot at the wrong truck 40+ times (That is the wrong color and model number) and they look nothing like the suspect. Or shoot at two asian ladies, or a white guy when you are looking for a 6 foot, 270 lb, black guy?



     

  • GrannyM.
    February 12, 2013 at 10:18 AM

     

    Wow...really sad....Shameful....

    Quoting brookiecookie87:

    http://www.latimes.com/news/local/la-me-torrance-shooting-20130209,0,4414028.story

    Dorner had a Grey Toyota Tundra. One of the vehicles they shot up was a Blue Toyota Tacoma.

    And they didn't accidentally shot one bullet into this innocent civilians truck. I counted 46 (I might be off by one or two).



    The second victim of Police shooting also the wrong color and model. And inside a skinny white guy.




    And this isn't even the end. The Supsect is a tall (Near 6 feet), black, and 270 lbs.

    They have shot at a truck with two Asian ladies. And a truck with a white guy in it.

    So unless two asian ladies look like a black guy or a blue truck looks like a gray truck (Differen't model as well) something is clearly wrong here.

    Someone made a joke that if you are a tall black man you need to stay inside for a few days. But since we have two asian ladies and a white guy being shot at. It is pretty clear that if cops are around you are in danger (If you are in southern california at the moment).

    Quote:

    Two people were struck by gunfire and transported to an area hospital with unknown injuries, Chase said. No officers were injured.

    The second incident, which involved Torrance police, occurred at Flagler Lane and Beryl Street about 5:45 a.m. No injuries were reported in that incident.

    I agree this guy needs to be stopped. But is shooting 40+ bullets at every shadow that might be him really the best way to "catch" him?

    An easy, "Please Come out with your hands up" Would have worked. Those people would have walked out of their vehicles and not been shot. Calling backup and following the vehicles would have worked as well.

    Running the license plate numbers would show who they are as well.

    This upsets me to no ends.

     

    Normally there is a, "But if you look at it from this point it makes sense" Direction from the action Police perform.

    But how do you shoot at the wrong truck 40+ times (That is the wrong color and model number) and they look nothing like the suspect. Or shoot at two asian ladies, or a white guy when you are looking for a 6 foot, 270 lb, black guy?



     

  • Jami134
    by Jami134
    February 13, 2013 at 3:52 AM

     I have no idea what you're saying here, but your condescending attitude comes across loud and clear.  I perused a couple other posts and can see that this is kind of an obsession with you, so I'm done here.


    Quoting brookiecookie87:

     

    http://www.latimes.com/news/local/la-me-torrance-shooting-20130209,0,4414028.story

    If I didn't give you a link..... Would you honestly say you have no way of knowing? Let me know if you need a link to anything else......

    Quoting Jami134:

     

    Not on my screen.  She has photos and her words but no article.

    Quoting lokilover:

     

     

    Quoting Jami134:

    Since the OP chose not to post the story that goes with the photograph, we have no way of knowing what happened or why.

    The OP has the article right up there.

     

     

     

     


     

  • brookiecookie87
    February 13, 2013 at 8:19 AM


    You said because I didn't post a link you have no way of knowing what happened or why.

    So my question is a perfectly sound one. If I didn't give you link do you honestly believe there was no other way to verify the information? Like perhaps Googling it. Use bing. Use yahoo search engine. Read any websites that present news.

    When I created this topic there was no link that gave a description of the event. The most detailed blurb about it was, "There were two cases of mistaken identity so far where shots were fired".

    There is far more coverage of both events now so there is a link there.

    Quoting Jami134:

     I have no idea what you're saying here, but your condescending attitude comes across loud and clear.  I perused a couple other posts and can see that this is kind of an obsession with you, so I'm done here.


    Quoting brookiecookie87:


    http://www.latimes.com/news/local/la-me-torrance-shooting-20130209,0,4414028.story

    If I didn't give you a link..... Would you honestly say you have no way of knowing? Let me know if you need a link to anything else......

    Quoting Jami134:


    Not on my screen.  She has photos and her words but no article.

    Quoting lokilover:



    Quoting Jami134:

    Since the OP chose not to post the story that goes with the photograph, we have no way of knowing what happened or why.

    The OP has the article right up there.









  • PhreakPhantasia
    February 18, 2013 at 10:04 AM

    I know it's not quite the same thing, but my dad got pulled over about 15 or so years ago. They made him get out of the vehicle and threw him to the ground. They were looking for someone driving a vehicle that "matched" our van's description. Our van was the wrong make, model, and color. As far as I can recall, they didn't even appologize. My dad was coming home from work at Saturn.

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